U.S. Senate
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(D) J. Hickenlooper*
(R) Somebody
80%
20%
Governor
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(D) Joe Neguse
(D) Phil Weiser
(D) Jena Griswold
60%
60%
40%↓
Att. General
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(D) M. Dougherty
(D) Alexis King
(D) Brian Mason
40%
40%
30%
Sec. of State
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(D) George Stern
(D) A. Gonzalez
(R) Sheri Davis
40%
40%
30%
State Treasurer
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(D) Brianna Titone
(R) Kevin Grantham
(D) Jerry DiTullio
60%
30%
20%
CO-01 (Denver)
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(D) Diana DeGette*
(R) Somebody
90%
2%
CO-02 (Boulder-ish)
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(D) Joe Neguse*
(R) Somebody
90%
2%
CO-03 (West & Southern CO)
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(R) Jeff Hurd*
(D) Somebody
80%
40%
CO-04 (Northeast-ish Colorado)
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(R) Lauren Boebert*
(D) Somebody
90%
10%
CO-05 (Colorado Springs)
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(R) Jeff Crank*
(D) Somebody
80%
20%
CO-06 (Aurora)
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(D) Jason Crow*
(R) Somebody
90%
10%
CO-07 (Jefferson County)
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(D) B. Pettersen*
(R) Somebody
90%
10%
CO-08 (Northern Colo.)
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(R) Gabe Evans*
(D) Yadira Caraveo
(D) Joe Salazar
50%
40%
40%
State Senate Majority
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DEMOCRATS
REPUBLICANS
80%
20%
State House Majority
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DEMOCRATS
REPUBLICANS
95%
5%
May 18, 2007 12:50 AM UTC
100 Comments
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Oh yeah,
That which is destroying America and stuck the dagger of death into Mexico’s citizens continues on…
Thank you globle elite and your paid off political hacks for once again sticking it to us all once again.
If Udall or any Dem other than DiGette votes for this bill, their careers are over.
John Salazar could vote for it. Ken as well. Although I think this bill does not go far enough in the direction of legalization it appears to have been the best they could achieve now. Specifically, I think the fines are too high and the “education” aspect so far is too vague. How much education is needed for a roofer, ag worker or ski lift operator? The high tech ID is good and one of the best aspects of them is that they will/should diminish some of the exploitation of immigrants that occurs today. I do hope the ID will be considered an eligible document to open bank accounts. If immigrants can open bank accounts it will cost them much less to send money home to support family members and therefore they might have more money to spend on housing and so forth here.
The more I think about it the more I like it. Its a good start.
and that was such a sweet landscaping job you had. Too bad that’s all over now.
that’s for you Empire !
But this seems to be a much needed step forward.
“The compromise came after weeks of painstaking closed-door negotiations that brought the most liberal Democrats and the most conservative Republicans together with President Bush’s Cabinet officers to produce a highly complex measure that carries heavy political consequences…
…The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so-called “point system” that prioritizes immigrants’ education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.”
Is it safe to assume this is happening because a new majority, and their superior negotiating skills, were able to arm wrestle all parties to the table? Were there any hispanic representatives involved? Will the pay-to-play revenue go towards administring the program and paying for the “high tech” verfication system? The borders issue is ennaresting….borders are so passe!
Lots of questions yet to be answered, but to my way of thinking, a pretty good start.
Ken salazar was right there when at the podium when they were announcing this at a press conference. Don’t know the level of his involvement though.
In an imperfect world, imperfect but workable arrangements are a positive step forward. Of course, all good compromises have one thing in common: They totally piss off the extremists on both sides.
I don’t get the education point system though. The workers who do jobs many Americans won’t do not need a much of an education. Are Master’s level illegals streaming over the border to take professional jobs? This seems like an odd “breakthrough” point. What am I missing here?
Americans once built our own homes, mowed our own lawns, and washed our own dishes. The only biz sector where I will concede complete surrender is in ag. I know older Americans who picked cotton and fruit, but too many generations have gone by.
I have noticed generally that many “pro immigrant rights” folks are in very safe positions. I wonder how “pro” their stances would be if the illegals were suddenly made college professors. It is the ordinary working stiffs of American that have had their jobs pulled out from under them, not the intellectuals. The latter would sing a different song if it was their jobs on the lam.
This is a sad day for America and its ability to protect itself. I find it disgusting that just weeks after 3 illegal immigrants were part of a scheme to shoot up a military base the US congress and Bush decide to pass a bill that would grant amnesty to illegal aliens, many of whom could be just as dangerous as those near Fort Dix. This is a poor outcome for our nation, and any congressman or senator who supported it will be considered un-American in my book. They should be charged with treason.
The “Reconquista.”
I agree.
I was watching the news the other night when they were talking about there not being enough illegals to pick the crops. The media says it is because we have tightened the border security. Crap! There arn’t enough to do the harvest because the ag business has not kept up its pay increases to match the other industries. I sure would rather serve food or pound nails than work in a field. Oh, thats right I can’t pound nails anymore because I cannot make a living at it because of the influx of immigrants have driven the wages down in that industry. After this immmigration reform is shoved down our necks-who are we going to give amnesty to to pick our crops.
What the hell happened to the United States of America?
that the more developed the human capital that comes in, the better for the economy. Canada and most of the European countries are quite stringent on that score: “Give us your educated, your wealthy or potentially wealthy, your creators of jobs and augmentors of GDP!”
What a load of horseshit. Where are protections for the American blue collar workers?
Pols, you forgot a poll option: This sucks for the American worker.
You just got 20 million free Democrat voting union members out of thin air.
How are they saying the bill has been agreed upon when it’s not even written yet? Why the hurry to vote for this before vacation when we still don’t have a bill to either fund the troops or de-fund them and get them home?
20 million “free democratic voting union members out of thin air”
May I suggest your statement is full of thin air?
Read the first paragraph of the post…does that sound like something “not written yet?”
Then you completely mix up the subject…and are wrong…again.
We have multiple bills to fund the troops AND bring them home. Justice is never on vacation.
Are you ready to call YOUR representative to bring the troops home LB?
…was that I think a more important issue at the moment is the emergency spending bill, and either funding the troops or not.
But let’s not leave them over there and not fund them because we’re dinking around with an immigration issue that is of lower priority.
I know that you have evidence to back that statement up, and just arent spouting mindless partisan drivel, no?
From me is mindless. (Unless you ask my wife…)
The Democrats are going to submit the bill for debate before presenting it through committee. It’s expected to be over 1000 pages long, and will likely not be available to the public for viewing online until after it’s been voted on.
I have no idea whether or not I support the bill. I would, however like to know what it encompasses before it’s passed in case I wanted to try to influence my elected representative with a letter. Does that make sense?
I don’t trust Bush any more than I trust congress when they’re trying to steamroll something through a vote so quickly like this.
Where do you pull this shit out of? Oh, the same orifice that my dad will be having his colonoscopy in an hour.
Can you be more specific? (Not orifice-wise – I get your point, I just don’t know what you think is BS).
that he’s referring to the “20 million free Democrat voting union members” comment. That made me do a double take, but I figured you were being snarky.
The potential new 20 million Democrat voters are the only reason this bill is being pushed.
It’s an interesting issue that’s really jacked up by the radicals on both sides. Who in their right mind would side with either Tancredo or with foreign nationals parading their flag on the streets?
For me, it really makes a consumption tax make sense.
20 million? Really? Considering that estimates put illegal immigrants at roughly 12 million, and considering that illegals can not vote, and considering that you have offered no evidence that illegals are currently voting, and considering that you have offered no evidence that after they jump through the hoops that are a part of this legislation they will not have the right to vote as they are not citizens I consider this mindless drivel.
It is a total canard that illegal immigrants, largely catholic workers, are going to vote democratic. And what is wrong with parading you heritage’s country’s flag in the streets? Correct me if I am wrong, but constitutional rights are guaranteed to all people within the united states not just citizens.
Nothing like logic!
..but the point is that they are going to be citizens. Estimates vary from 10 to 30 million illegals in the US.
If they’re citizens, they’ll vote, right? I never said they’re voting now – it’s a huge potential voting block that everyone is falling over themselves to pander to.
From what I have heard they have to first return home, they get two years, than they have to return for a year, come for two, go back for one, return for two, and then they can not come back. In other words, they can not become citizens.
It is my understanding that this is not a reagan-esque clemency for all illegals. In fact, at best, they may only become resident aliens, not naturalized citizens, without first going through the usual rigors of citizenship qualification.
That’s my biggest problem with the bill. It’s 1000 pages long and nobody’s seen it yet – not the whole thing. I don’t know if I support it or not, and yet it’s being voted on Monday?
(Not like I have a vote, but what’s the big rush?)
This sounds like a delicate compromise to a complex problem. In this environment, with a politically charged issue, there can be no other.
I don’t know if this is a good compromise but Yev said it right: “all good compromises have one thing in common: They totally piss off the extremists on both sides.”
This is definitely going piss people off, especially because few will read the fine print of the compromise or contemplate the complexities of potential solutions. The AP headline my Yahoo homepage is: “Deal may legalize millions of immigrants”
This is a dream come true for Tancredo. He has all the talking points he needs now. Immigration is front and center exactly where he wants it. His supporters are going to be on fire.
and his supporters – the ones who will be pissed off by this – are actually rather marginalized. I don’t believe they exist in such great numbers that anyone will really pay them any mind. Yes, Tancredo will yap on and on about this, and maybe somewhere along the line he’ll actually make a pertinent point, but I always thought that (in the political sense at least) that illegal immigration was much ado about nothing. Or rather, much ado about firing up today’s “know nothing” crowd. (And if you aren’t sure what “know nothing” refers to, check out this link.)
I am in total agreement.
…of the Corporate States of America,
And to the gross profit for which it stands.
One nation, under fraud,
A subsidiary,
with liberty and justice for sale.
Welcome to the Second Gilded Age.
Those who disapprove of this compromise legislation and advocate deporting all illegal immigrants are living in a dream world.
On my Tancredo blog – which will soon, I hope, no longer be necessary as Tom T. will sink into irrelevancy – someone actually wrote me saying that all illegal immigrants should get life in prison “at least” – and preferably the death penalty!
There are some very frightened and frightening people out there looking for something akin to the Final Solution in 1940s Germany, and looking to scapegoat illegal immigrants just as those Germans scapegoated Jews. Thankfully that fringe is very small.
I’m proud of most of our legislators for coming up with a workable compromise. I hope it gets passed and working soon.
We’re not going to be able to see it until after they’ve voted on it.
Mike Gravels position on this subject. He’s picking up steam as a presidential candidate, and having heard him once or twice, I have to admit he’s a lucid, common sense, practical and persuasive kind of guy. This is what he’s proposing:
National Initiative for Democracy
Empower Americans by giving us the mechanism–The National Ballot Initiative–to vote directly on issues which affect our daily lives. This power is similar to the initiatives used by citizens in 24 states and over 200 communities.
You can read more about hime here:
http://www.gravel200…
than the largely uninformed masses voting directly on issues. The interplay of Tabor, A-23, and Gallagher come to mind.
The people in a democracy diciding what they want? Lets just throw democracy out the window. I no longer trust the government or our representatives to do what is right for us. There are to many variables that influence their decissions. This is just another sales job being forced down our throats. I would rather trust the judgement of “the uninformed masses” than a congress composed of people who are controlled by the influence peddling lobbiests of Washington. Yes, lets just throw democracy out the window and while we are at it lets tear up the Constitution it has little relevance in our modern world.
Everything going to a vote of the people just means that the side with the slickest marketing and lowest ethical standard will win the day and control our destiny. Talk about control by influence peddlers. Representative government is a good system and works when the citizens insist that it does.
Take our state legislature. Can we pay legislators any more or put any more restrictions on influence? How about the masses become more informed so political service is more about thoughtful progress than sound bites and announcements on the steps of the capitol.
There was recently discussion on this board about Al White and his breaking ranks w/ the Rs on Ritter’s property tax plan. Whether you agree with it or not it was courageous and thoughtful… and he’ll probably get slaughtered for it.
of what you say and I commend Al white. But I do not agree that representative government is working anymore except at the very lowest levels. As far as the masses are concerned-its going to get worse. I have a daughter that will be graduating soon (at the top of her class) and the only time she saw a copy of the Constitution was when I gave her one. The only discussion she has about it are with me. The school systems are dumbying down our children as far as knowledge of how the government is supposed to work. So its going to get worse before it gets better. Lambs to the slaughter house.
Good point, lack of knowledge of the constitution, and the rationale behind it, are a threat to the constitution and thus to continuity and effectiveness of governance. This brings us back to the intial point: Do you believe that CO governance has been enhanced or hindered by the ease at which the state constitution can be modified by the people? Lauren, where are you on this one?
Colorado voters have made a mess of it for some time, and it’s not getting any better. Sorry, but most voters make choices on emotion, not informed study. As faulty as the system is, I’d still rather have representatives who are paid to study the issues and listen to hearings before passing laws.
Is Phoenix Rising still working on this?
but the bill that would have put what Phoenix was speaking about before into law was killed this year. It was sad because this year there was a possibility it could have passed. Next year it won’t because of elections.
And speaking of elections, the Sec of State already has 30 possible initiatives for November and I think 28 are constitutional amendments.
Our judges are corrupt. Our elected executive branch officials are corrupt. Our bureaucrats are corrupt. What makes you think we can trust our legislators?
All judges, elected executive branch officials, and bureaucrats are corrupt? Damn, that’s a lot of corruption. Maybe it is time for a mutiny Cap’t, arrrrggggg!
At least a grand Revolution.
I would love to be able to tell my Grandchildren that I was part of the “08” revolution.
Some of the crazy crap that makes up initiatives these days is startling. Much of it is pushed by zany extremists grinding an axe, and all of Colorado often suffers for it.
The initiative process gives the disenfranchised a fair chance to impact the laws that govern their lives. Not everyone can pay a Troy Eid to prevail upon his good friend Gale Norton to see things in a certain way.
Our Founding Fathers were crazy extremists. As Samuel Adams observed, “[i]t does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.” They even openly advocated violence! Hell, they even engaged in it.
Barry Goldwater said, “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.”
Our precious Constitution contained an initiative provision; why should we tamper with it? Because you don’t like the outcome personally?
It’s seldom about ordinary people making their voices heard at the ballot box; it’s much more likely that some special interest that’s willing to invest in signature collecting and filing fees is using the process to get laws passed at the ballot box rather than the legislature. At least in the lege things can be debated and flaws in good bills might get worked out. (Think Amendment 41 – good idea, bad law.)
And here in Colorado we can make those bad laws into constitutional amendments! I think it’s time for reforming the process.
that ordinary people are largely shut out of the discussion when it happens in the Capitol, and certain things can only get done via a constitutional amendment.
Sure, the system can be perverted. But isn’t that also the case down at our Capitol? I’ve seen bills arrive DOA, mostly because our legislators are in somebody’s pocket. If you are from a Republican district, you might as well not even have a rep in the state house, for all he can get done on your behalf.
Let’s leave the amendment system alone. It does work, by and large.
Sometimes I like the outcome, sometimes I don’t. Most people on both sides agree that constitutional amendments can sound standing alone but conflict with other amendments and create huge problems that cannot easily be corrected.
…on the Judicial Accountability Act of 2008. Our judicial system is in desperate need of reform, and it is evident that our system of judicial discipline does not work. The only way to fix the problem is via constitutional amendment, due to an anomaly in our state constitution that separates the branches so completely.
If I am going to propose a change to our state constitution, I want to get it right.
for giving her a copy Duke! I keep a pocket copy of the constitution (and declaration of independence) on my desk every day.
has anyone read the Colorado constitution in its entirety? I keep the Independence Institute’s copy bookmarked for easy reference (as well as the Lexis annotated version), but it is a rare bird that has even glanced at it.
Miss Ive:Everything going to a vote of the people just means that the side with the slickest marketing and lowest ethical standard will win the day and control our destiny.”
Errrr, how is that any different from the system we have now? Your only hope of implementing change is to buy your own legislator — and even then, you have to persuade people of the rightness of your cause, no matter how objectively right it is.
Just impose a 500% excise tax on all compensation paid to illegals. Make it a trust-fund tax (like FICA taxes), which means that corporate officers are personally liable. Illegals will head home because there is no work for them.
“We don’t have an illegal immigrant problem, we have an illegal employer problem.”
No jobs, no illegals. There aren’t many things simple in life, but that is one of them.
Tancredo is marginalized. Even he can’t believe he has a chance. I think he’s in this to raise the volume on the immigration debate and to capture a sliver of limelight.
So we agree that the immigration bill won’t catapult Tancredo to the white house. Do you really think that the immigration issue is “much ado about nothing”? Seems that there are some people that are really lathered up about immigration. I think this will provide Tancredo with a much more attentive audience and the attention of that audience may steer the debate of the others. Other opinions on this?
Thanks also for the link Ari. I didn’t know about the “know nothings” It says in your link “Activists formed secret groups, coordinating their votes and throwing their weight behind candidates sympathetic to their cause.” The 527s of the past. Wonder if they did robocalls.
but it’s been completely botched by Tancredo and others driving the hardline position. While they could try to demonstrate exactly how it’s costing our society (which, to be fair, can be countered by arguments about how they benefit us as well), they instead fall back on easy scapegoating tactics and many of the most fervent supporters come across as xenophobic morons who just don’t want any of “them” here, no matter whether they’re legal or not (hence my “know nothing” reference).
I believe illegal immigration never caught on with the general public as a major issue. It’s never come up in any discussion I’ve had outside of overtly political forums like this. I’ve seen very few bumper stickers against it and it’s been a while since the last time. I’m basing my “much ado about nothing” statement on those observations. I just didn’t encounter many people who were fired up about it.
you must lead a sheltered life if you do not hear discussions on the street about immigration. Come on down to the working mans level and you will hear about immigration. Go to a working mans bar-but be careful what YOU say and start a discussion about immigration. I think you are out of touch Bud.
Do they lobby their representatives? Do they do anything to make their voices heard?
But, I have the time now-I didn’t have the time when I was struggling for a living.
Do the illegal immigrants vote-NO
But they sure get a lot of help (from the special interests groups and the bleeding hearts) getting their voices heard.
I just wish that our government cared as much for its legal citizens as it has shown for the Illegal immigrants!
from the BIG INDUSTRIES like construction, agriculture and meat packing that depend on their cheap labor. Don’t aim your ire at “bleeding hearts” – there aren’t that many of them and they don’t contribute to politicians like the (mostly republican) big businesses do.
(that you participate, that is) but the way the system works is that people get organized and show the government what matters to them. The immigrants and their supporters know this, and they’ve marched by the tens of thousands with little opposition. (How many people show up to demonstrate against illegal immigration? Maybe a hundred.)
If there’s some groundswell of opposition, they must not care to make their voices heard.
Hell, we need a hundred Bonus marches on Washington to cure the ills of this country and to take back our government.
I agree with you.
But no one can take off work; we are all running looking over our shoulder for that economic wolf.
to my mind-why are we letting these illegal Imigrants dictate to our government? They have broken the law!
You and I must obey the laws-I guess it is OK to break the law if you are not a citizen of this country. Amnesty, and that is what this bill is, sends the wrong message.
Lets just give amnesty to drug dealers, murderers, etc.
Any problem that our government can not control or chooses not to control-lets just sweep it under the rug by granting amnesty to all offenders.
I am not a true liberal or a true conservative-but this legislation just does not ring true in my mind. And why such a rush to get it passed. More dialogue is needed and time.
The issue apparently matters to someone, because on the Rocky Mountain News RockyTalk boards, every single news story talkback degenerates into people railing about illegal immigration. A story about Denver, someone starts posting about how only illegals live in Denver. A story about Mayor Hickenlooper, it’s all about Denver the sanctuary city and how Mayor Hickenlooper hires illegals at Wynkoop Brewing. A story about President Bush, it’s all about how President Bush is trying to push amnesty for the illegals. Blah Blah Blah, You get the idea. Not so much at the Denver Post — I think the RMN being thought of as the “conservative” paper attracts the immigration trolls.
I don’t think there’s really that many people who make this much of an issue, but there’s a small percentage (maybe 5%) for whom this is their ONLY issue. I think such people find it convenient to blame any problems on illegal aliens. It’d be easy to assume that it’s all blue-collar, uneducated people, but apparently not, for Tancredo has been reelected three times in his district that is largely upper middle class.
So, the bottom line is that there is a core group out there that is rabidly and fanatically opposed to any compromise on illegal immigration that it perceives as too soft.
and should be recognised as such.
This is going to be one quick piece of legislature that we have little control over. It will pass quickly just like the Patriot Act. Much to the downfall of our society.
Government by the people and for the people- what a bunch of crap!
I hope no one got the idea that I believed nobody cared about it. But 5% sounds reasonable, and I’d say that 5% is on the margins…
I’ll be sending that lens for your belly button-LOL
Without a doubt, that’s the weirdest thing anyone’s ever said to me…
Well, let’s say the immigration crowd is pissed off. You are right that the impact of this issue didn’t materialize as was expected in the ’06 election. It hasn’t gained steam since then. The question is: will the proposed immigration reform quiet or enhance debate, and if the debate is enhanced will it be loud enough to matter.
Tom doesn’t want to solve the immigration problem; he just wants his ego stroked.
Leave it to the Anti-Americans on both the right and left to down play the magnitude of this never before history making legislation. Of course there is a reason for this. They write on this board, others get on TV and radio by saying “we had to do it” (coming from the right) and “it doesn’t go far enough” (from the Left)
Truth is, that thus far this current bill IS secret. For starters, that’s admitted. However, even the pro supporters as well as those who voted against it (For those politicians who actually read the damn thing) both agree the bill is TOTAL amnesty. Plus, rummor has it (FROM DC) there will be EVEN more pilling on to it before or ‘Resident’ of the White House Bush signs it.
This letter was published at a Townhall blog:
Given the remarkable disdain and even contempt for law our public officials have shown, should there be any surprise that they would endorse such lawlessness?
As another poster put it, “Laws not men.”
0n his own blog site for his stance on the immegration amnesty proposal.
http://www.johnmccai…
Rio-you might enjoy the reading
That is amazing. I cannot believe that the campaign hasn’t stopped the hemorraging(sp) by closing down the blog. There must be over a hundred different comments, most from unique visitors, and only two supporters.
Some would have us believe that enforcement-first activists are a significantly tiny minority…about to be marginalized further.
I’ll bet McCain is feeling a little marginalized right now. Maybe a couple of the looney leftists on this site can help give the old man a sym-pathetic smile.
I seldom go out on a prognistacion limb, but here is what I think will happen:
Nothing.
With the costs and demands of the Visa Z and naturalization, the illegals will mostly just shrug and blow it off. Yes, a few, the very best, will comply because they want to live in America. God speed and good luck, you are the folks we want.
What about the folks traipsing over on January 1st and later? What about the kids born here.
And let me sarcastically close with what a great example this is for anyone trying to get here legally. Hell, buy an airline ticket from Addis Abba or wherever, to Mexico City, and sneak across. You will get here a lot faster and more assuredly.
We have three problems in regard to immigration and no good solutions for any of them. First, we have to secure that border with Mexico to protect us from increased invasion from Latin America as well as terrorists. We have technology to detect people crossing the border. There is no technology to DETER people from crossing WITHOUT harming them. The only secure borders in the world are those which are fortified. The border between North and South Korea has armed guards and a land mine field to prevent invasion.
The “Iron Curtain” between East and West during the Cold War was similarily fortified, barbed wire, mines and soldiers with order to shoot to kill. Absent that kind of fortification, we basically have an open border.
Second problem, large areas of the South West share a culture with Mexico because we conquered that country about 150 years ago….not that long ago for families with history on the land….Because we are a nation of immigrants, most of us go back two maybe three generations. Hispanics in parts of the Southwest go back 400 years in the same place. With the Anglo occupation, land was stolen, culture marginalized, Spanish forbidden in the schools. There is a residue of bitterness over that which resonates now in the treatment of immigrants from Mexico among Hispanics living here for centuries.
Finally, we need the workers. I have no solutions.
Before the leftist/corporate-whore cabal jam an amnesty down our throats, why not attempt to enforce existing law?
BTW, any claim that the immigration reduction movement is some miniscule group of pissed-off rednecks obviously lives a cloistered life. Go to any conservative site and read the articles and comments on this issue.
In fact, right now on townhall.com Michael Barone is being roasted on an open spit for claiming the new Senate amnesty bill is a step in the right direction.
I’d rather live with an unenforced Simpson/Mazzoli than an amnesty bill written by Ted “The Swimmer” Kennedy and Presidente Jorge Bush.
but what happens on a conservative site is no indicator of how the population at large feels about the issue. Since I spend much of my day interacting with all kinds of people all over the political and socioeconomic scale I’ll maintain that the anti-illegal immigration force is a small one, and one that soon will be marginalized.
Isn’t this “small force” already marginalized by the insignificance of its numbers? How can a massive amnesty for foreign invaders marginalize this small, insignificant group more? As this group is so small, why haven’t the illegals been granted amnesty already?
Should Simpson/Mazzoli be enforced? If so, why? If not, why not?
BTW, liberals “feel”, conservatives “think”. The population is pretty evenly divided between the two, and it is therefore dishonest to paint the population at large as a bunch of “feelers”. These are just my thoughts on the issue though, tell me how you feel about it.
that the inane platitude “liberals think conservative feel” always repeated by conservatives who definitely feel but don’t think?
To your other points, such as they are: I don’t know what Simpson/Mazzoli is. I don’t know much about the facts or myths surrounding the issue. I don’t particularly care because no one has yet given me a compelling reason to. Those who are most passionate about it always fall back on stereotypes about immigration that are as old as they days when non-English immigrants first started coming in large numbers. So I immediately tune out when confronted with these arguments because life is too short to spend trying to show such people the flaws in their logic. They’re feelers, after all, not thinkers.
Ta-ta.
S/M was in 1986 and then Ted Kennedy said that we would have our border secured and that there would be no need for further amnesty in the future. He also said that no more than 1.1 to 1.4 million illegals would take advantage of the amnesty. Well, over 2.5 million did take advantage of the amnesty. So we are told that amnesty will be available for 12 million-but, it is more like 20 million. So in 86 we were told that we would have: Control of the border;
Enforcement of laws requiring employers to know someone is here legally before hiring them; and
No more amnesty and no more tolerance of illegality
All lies.
Are we to believe Ted Kennedy again?
This new proposal from what we know of the big points of it-is frought with more problems. This proposal is not the answer and should not be rushed through before the holiday. I worry when Washington wants to push things through without full knowledge of the voters. Specially when it is over 1000 pages in length (and is still being written as I post).
for the explanation. That puts things in perspective.
Lest anyone misunderstand me, I never said that illegal immigration wasn’t a problem. But I still seek an explanation as to what it is costing our society – and also for how it’s benefiting us. In other words, I’d like someone to bring forward a full accounting of the issue, one that’s reasoned and balanced. Facts are in short supply.
That said, I’ll reiterate my earlier point. The movement to close the borders is small. It’s not within the mainstream. That doesn’t mean that they’re not right (lord knows there have been plenty of small movements throughout our history that have been in the right). But they apparently have failed to persuade the rest of us, and once this bill is passed and signed – regardless of whether it’s right or wrong, regardless of whether it’s rushed for the purpose of denying public comment or not – then this topic will be off the front pages and the blogs, at least for another decade or two.
You’re post exposes your intellectual dishonesty. You don’t rise to the level of Chomsky, let alone Aristotle.
Heck, it would be a stretch to say you have the intellectual capicity to even rise to the level of Marx; and that freak was half out of his mind.
You are transparent.
Good legislation was to end a problem-not just to defer it to another generation or time.
but seldom the reality.
The Heritage Foundation testified before congress on what the costs are. Briefly put it is $20,000 per year per family of illegals over what they pay in taxes. That is if I remember correctly-but you can check it out yourself. I only do my own research-you should do yours.
that figure is per individual and not per family.
Voila!
Now, if only the Heritage Foundation weren’t a think tank and therefore a group with axes to grind…
that you do your own research. If I felt that the issue was more compelling I would do so too. But it’s my belief that if you want to persuade people to see things your way you should be willing to provide the data to back up your argument.
If you are to take the opposit side you ought to have your ducks in a row. Most times you do not.
And I did give you a starting point to answer your question as to the costs and benifits.
I’m neutral on the issue. I thought that was clear.
Debate me on other topics – you’ll see what facts I have at my disposal.